The Dave and Dan Civil 3D Show

Dan Philbrick and Dave Simeone add their colorful and insightful views, opinions, and expertise on Autodesk Civil 3D and the civil engineering marketplace.

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posted 09/14/06 by Dave Simeone Civil 3D Project – the "Game Changer"
With the release of Civil 3D 2007, we’ve had a number of people question the move to Vault as our underlying Project Management foundation. Why change from shortcuts? What were shortcuts? How is the "Project" different than what we had in LDT? How does this compare with manually importing external data files? Why shift to a broader data management environment from a more targeted focus on the Civil model data?

Before I answer the "Why Vault" question, let’s first talk about the goals of a Project-based engineering solution. Here are some things that we hear daily:

- Model data needs to be used by many people in many different forms through the life of a project. For example, the centerline of an alignment will be used in many different production sheets or by many different project team members as a project is developed. Agreed?

- Referencing central model elements (ie, one version of the alignment that everyone shares) greatly reduces the risk of someone working with the wrong version of the model. In other words, one version of the alignment that will be displayed in all sheets and used as a design reference for profiles, corridor models, pipe networks, etc. Make sense?

The basic concept of the project capabilities in Civil 3D are:

1. Create a drawing that includes the full, editable Civil 3D object (ie, an alignment)
2. Check the alignment object into the project so that others can reference it
3. Any user who is working in this project can create a reference to the alignment object. What’s real important to understand is:

a. Users cannot edit/modify the object reference

b. When you create a reference, you can set the style to whatever is needed in the drawing that you’re inserting it. Example – EG surface may be displayed as 1’ contours in the Topo drawing, but then only as a border in the utilities sheets.

c. If the master object is updated and checked back into the project, you can update references of the object (ie, alignment Elm is correct in all drawings)

d. All of the object intelligence is available in the reference. This means you can create drafting details, reports, tables or use the objects for further design from referenced objects.

For you LDT users, think of the LDT project structure, but add the fact that there is a ongoing link between your drawings and the central project. If the central project updates, there’s no need to re-import project data, recreate drafting, etc. same with products that allow you import data from external data files to create drawings or to use in the design process. With Civil 3D, the process is much more dynamic and automated. Referenced project data in Civil 3D can always remain in sync. Correct me if I’m wrong, but having one version of critical model data that is intelligently shared by any number of project team members or that shows up in any number of drawings can provide some serious productivity improvements. Make sense?

OK, so how does Vault fit in?… Oh my, look at the time! I’ve gotta run – I’ll cover this in my next post!

4 comments In The Dave and Dan Civil 3D Show > Project Management

User Comments

  • Dave -
    In LDT the data is always the data available via the project. I don't need to always display it - but I need to query the EG surface to "pull" the data to create the EG profile for my alignment. The EG surface was created in my ProjectTopo drawing. In my ProjectGrading drawing, I don't need the surface or existing contours in the drawing, but I have the ability to edit the surface "live". I can also sample data from the EG surface to create the profile.
    In C3d, data references have to be manually applied. Why can't C3d create data references in a similar "project" data-sharing. Why do I need VAULT?

    Matt Anderson
    anderson at jaseng.com

    Posted 9/15/2006 11:04 AM by Matthew Anderson

  • Dave -
    I waited as long as I could today before replying to your exaltation of a product which delivers neither any measurable value nor benefit to a mid-sized Civil engineering firm.
    The added complexity in teaching and managing the open-close process is unneeded or wanted.
    Any firm with an in place back-up scheme already has a versioning system in place that does not have to occupy active server space.
    Our Pilot project, which still has two weeks to go, occupies 163 Meg of dwg files in the working folder.
    The file store is currently 1.53 G. Our base improvement file has 65 versions. The ratio between working folder size and file store size will continue to grow worse as many of the dwg's only need minor changes but they will be retained in their entirety within the file store.

    The last time I counted Active projects and dwg's on our main project server, we had 800 active projects and 47,000 dwg files.
    That server has a capacity of 340 G, 200 g has been used. A ration of 10 to 1 , File store to working folder size, is idiotic.
    But not to worry, can't use that server anyway. Novell. Not Supported.
    I like the prospects for Civil3D. Vault may be the reason we go a different direction. It's that big a deal.

    John Postlewait
    IS Department
    George Butler Associates, Inc.

    Posted 9/15/2006 3:47 PM by John Postlewait

  • Dave,
    I have to agree with John, I was excited about C3d until 07 came out and learned I had to use Vault to share project data. The prospect of going to my boss and explain we need to update our servers too use the product we haven't even become productive on yet is not a pleasant thought. We felt forced to buy the updates last year, with the subscription, when we were perfectly happy with LDD. We just renewed our subscription and now have to update our servers to be able to share project info??? There must be a better solution, or product out there. It may be time to start looking. I hate to say that, I've been using Autodesk and DCA since 1988.

    John Frank
    CADD Manager
    ECI Corporation

    Posted 9/15/2006 8:13 PM by John Frank

  • Hi All - Those of you who've been following Civil 3D since have probably heard these and similar comments over the R2007 cycle. Some customers are finding Vault-based Project Management to be spot on and others are having challenges. We realize that Vault implementation is a big deal and we're working on some things that will hopefully help you non-Vault users so that you can share project data more effectively. I'll start a new post on my Blog on this subject in the next couple of weeks. Thanks - Dave S

    Posted 9/18/2006 1:02 PM by Dave Simeone